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The Unions - Are they just abusing thier power now?

3K views 66 replies 27 participants last post by  Zenith Blue 
#1 ·
We all know of the recent tanker drivers strikes, the teachers strikes e.t.c and also now the binmens strikes which are due and its got me to thinking, I really hate the unions now!!

The unions came about to protect the rights of workers from the greedy bosses, it now seems that they are the ones suffering from greed. At a time when the country is basically fubar'd is it right for these unions to be asking so much and holding the general population to ransom if they dont get thier way?

Now I understand cost of living is running about 4% and that in an ideal world we would like to see pay rises in line with this but the country simply cant afford to go on in this fashion, its desperate times and by demanding this extra pay aren't we just allowing the countries problems to go on longer?

I have got to the point now where I am feeling hatred towards the unions, I am sick of being threatened by them, I have little to no sympathy for these workers that claim £40K a year isn't enough, some of them claim their jobs are stressful and they deserve these rates, well my response would be that I run my own company, I have to work extremly hard, I am even starting a second company at the moment and I put in 60+ hours a week at least plus the fact im never totally off work, its always there, I always worry about it as I am responsible for it and for my workers, I take home £25K if im lucky and I think I am paid pretty well!!

Anyway, enough of my rant, lets discuss, im interested to see if others are as pissed off with these greedy, overpaid and hypocritical union bosses!!
 
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#8 · (Edited)
unfortuantly it doesn't always work like that, I run my own company, a small company with 6 employees, I could take more money for myself but my first responsibilty is my business and I prefer to reinvest back into the business to expand a grow the company...

The Union protects the working man.
I agree here, the unions do protect the working man but when does protection turn into attack? I'm not disregarding the role of the unions but I do wonder if they have started to take things to far here?

I do believe that power corrupts however.
and this corruption is what brought about the unions and workers rights, to me it feels that the unions have got too big and now are in the position to act upon greed

OK...so imagine you signed a contract of employment with certain Ts & Cs...then just before you retire they change your pension terms without your say so........is that fair?? I'm sure you'd be mightily fucked off.....and if you're not in a union.....it's tough shit.
I couldn't agree more, this is when the unions do a great job,this is what the unions should do, fight for the workers rights. When is it taken to far though, is it right for those earning well above average to use the unions power to feed thier own greed or should these people accept that the country is in recession, growth is minimal, the economy is going nowhere and that maybe, just maybe, they should be grateful that they have got such well paid jobs already?

Unions are a good thing.....especially with the "Coalition" government reliving the 80's all over again and fucking over everyone. Thatcher did her best to get rid of them then.....guess you dont remember how rough it was back then?
This is an attitude that does really bug me. Many people seam to think labour done everything perfectly, that they only benifited the country, well thats not true. I agree the coalition are doing a shit job and I am not a fan but whilst it seems rosie under labour they basically filled everyone with bull shit, they were giving away money to buy popularity. They were overinflating the public sector, making jobs to take down unemployment, giving away all these excessive pensions and benifits, running the country to bankruptcy to make themsleves look like the party that cares, they run up this debt, they destroyed our economy, they left us in this shit!

I do remember how rough it was an I hope we never return that way, I dont like the way that public sectors are being ct when top earners are still being benifited but it also makes me sick when I hear of people preparing to strike because 40K a year isn't enough to survive on. How many people out there live on 12-15K a year and survive? How many people have to make do with shit jobs they hate earning shit wages? Times are hard, why should a few make it harder for everyone else just so they dont have to have this minor inconvenience know as the credit crunch affect them?

I am not saying the unions are all wrong here but there are only so many threats of strikes that the country will take before they no longer care, the unions will lose public confidence, the goverment will get the support and then we will be back in that situation no one wants to be in!!

"We all know of the recent tanker drivers strikes" - they were 12 years ago weren't they? Or do you mean last week when there was no strike at all, but the government whipped up a panic to keep other news out of the headlines?
You got me there, I missed the word 'threat' and yes I know it was exacerbated by the goverment but its not like this is an uncommon occurance recently...
 
#3 ·
The Union protects the working man.

I get more worked up at dividends and bonuses paid out of profits that would be better ploughed back into investment in infrastructure or benefits for employees.

This is a debate that polarises - I doubt you'll get any kind of argument that will sway people from their pre-existing views.

Glen.
 
#12 ·
It's all well and good you saying more investment less dividends, but unions have fought tooth and nail against investment in modern machinery as it would take away jobs, so any company looking to invest in automated productivity has had to fight union resistance and find jobs for those workers that are no longer required. It's a tough world out there and if there's no job then there's no job...but enforced redeployment of staff has created problems with profitability, the life blood of any company.....but a dirty word to some!

Unions as a benevolent organisation OK, but militant, restrictive and selfish NO!
 
#4 ·
I wont change my overall views glen, and I am a union supporter.
I do believe that power corrupts however.

Im not saying that is the case here, but there are definitely some actions I do not believe are right ....

I haven't been following these stories so that is my only comment.
 
#5 ·
OK...so imagine you signed a contract of employment with certain Ts & Cs...then just before you retire they change your pension terms without your say so........is that fair?? I'm sure you'd be mightily fucked off.....and if you're not in a union.....it's tough shit.

Unions are a good thing.....especially with the "Coalition" government reliving the 80's all over again and fucking over everyone. Thatcher did her best to get rid of them then.....guess you dont remember how rough it was back then?
 
#6 ·
I remember how rough it was back then.

The likes of Scargill, determined to look after themselves, and their particular union members held their fellow countrymen to ransom regular, causing untold misery in the pursuit of their own agenda.

They were abusing the power bestowed upon them by a few thousand, to manipulate a government voted in by a few million.

Thatcher did not get rid of them, but she did cut off one of their bollocks.
Unions are very necessary to protect the rights of the working population. They are a good thing, a bit like a fire - very nice, a great comfort and useful - but a real bastard when out of control.
 
#33 ·
cant you remember the scandal.in '85 scargill used money from union funds to pay for a luxury bungalow in barnsley. just been reading how union have finally expelled him. he has been charging them £33k a year for a flat in london along with a load of other huge 'expenses' and now hes trying to sue num for another 50k. not dissing unions but that guy was and is a cunt
He has just won that case in a court of law.

Have you any proof of the "scandal" ?
 
#36 ·
He has just won that case in a court of law.

Have you any proof of the "scandal" ?
most of it from memory but most of all i remember the shock and dissapointment felt by all union members and supporters like myself when the story broke(not in the sun ffs). he just won case for £13k but has started further proceeding yesterday that if he wins may cost the union a further £80k.
 
#11 ·
To me its about negotiation, if one side has all the power then the other side will get shafted. That is guaranteed. So the government makes proposals to change public sector pensions, the unions reject them and bring out workers on strike for a day to prove they have support - then they go away and reach a compromise. Sometimes you need a show if strength, otherwise you just get walked all over or ignored.

That is pretty much what happened recently, and I cant really see what wrong with it? The alternative is the government simply does what it wants with public sector workers pensions, and I don't see how that is any better?

I am not really into unions and they do attract some self serving leaders, and there does seem to be more than a little hypocracy on occasions. But the unions have always been presented as bogie men by the rightwing tabloid media. It is ridiculous to compare the threat of strike action by some tanker drivers, and a bit of sabre rattling with by public sector unions with the real power they had in the 1970s. If they did have too much power, then they certainly don't have now.
 
#15 ·
If they did have too much power, then they certainly don't have now.
But are they doing themselves any favours? They are lossing public support at a massive rate and they are not going to get it when they are fighting for higher wages when they already earn above average wage, there are many people in a worse of situation then them and when the unions threaten to make those peoples lives evern worse it gains no support!!
 
#14 ·
A question, why are our unions not so integrated as the German unions? Look at Volkswagen (thats slightly special as its company formation is odd) but say Porsche, and ho wthe unions there operate.
I am not saying thyey are perfect but they do appear to sustain a rich economy.
 
#18 ·
Personally I havent been a member of a union since I was made redundant in the early '90s, a year or so after finishing my engineering apprenticeship.

I know a few people who work for Network Rail and are curently in the RMT union, they are very disillusioned with the way the RMT is moving forward and are often moaning about the union. From what they have been saying it seems to them that every bit of action taken by the union at the moment is fought on the London Underground for a political impact only. They feel that during all the recent Network Rail staffing reorganisations in the past few years they have been under represented by the RMT as their's would not make a mainstream media issue.

Generally I do feel that some fight to preserve certain employment rights and benefits needs to be made, however a lot of the union actions do appear to be unreasonable at the moment if the news reports are accurate.
 
#20 ·
do the anti-union brigade on here REALLY think that any improvements in working conditions, pay, safety etc over the last 100 years have been down to the altruism of employers?
 
#26 ·
I'm not sure that all of the disputes mentioned in the first post are actually solely about money, as far as I understood it the tanker drivers were getting agitated about health and safety as much as anything, and the teachers are getting upset over significant changes to the way their working year is structured, because they don't believe it's practical or in the best interests of the kids. Don't know about the bin men though.

The fuel drama was triggered by Maude suggesting people top up and stock petrol in their garages. As things stand no strike date has been announced and the unions have agreed to negotiations via ACAS.

In the same way as UK bosses didn't just decide to give people more holiday and better working conditions, EU law didn't just magically decide to push through legislation to protect workers from being sacked because of the colour of their skin. A significant amount of the reasoning behind those kinds of legislation is hard work by unions in Europe and the UK.

I don't necessarily think that everything unions do is right, or even for the right reasons. But I also don't think that everything in the media you read about unions is unbiased. Neither do you get the full story on the reasons behind the actions the unions take.
 
#30 ·
As an ex shop steward and a paid up member of the boiler makers union for the last 23 years (even though I am now self employed I still pay my fees)it sickens me how in this day and age people look down on the unions.Yes back in the 60s and 70s they did take the piss when they would go on strike if the tea was too cold(and this did happen).And yes during this time they where against automative advancement which mean't countries like China progressed(because the workers where treated with equality)but every thing we have now is thanks to unions.As for Scargill building his house from the miners strike where did you get that information from the FUCKIN SUN.Here's an idea,why don't we all take a 10% pay cut and we will soon get the country back on track.
 
#32 ·
As an ex shop steward and a paid up member of the boiler makers union for the last 23 years (even though I am now self employed I still pay my fees)it sickens me how in this day and age people look down on the unions.Yes back in the 60s and 70s they did take the piss when they would go on strike if the tea was too cold(and this did happen).And yes during this time they where against automative advancement which mean't countries like China progressed(because the workers where treated with equality)but every thing we have now is thanks to unions.As for Scargill building his house from the miners strike where did you get that information from the FUCKIN SUN.Here's an idea,why don't we all take a 10% pay cut and we will soon get the country back on track.
:lol:

Interestingly Scargill has just won a legal case and the UDM duplicitous fucking weasel Greatrex has been found out to have been syphoning money from charities. Lots of money. I guess Thatchers pet union leader does not make as good a target as the "enemy within" :rolleyes:
 
#39 ·
Whilst I'm not old enough to remember with an adult perspective the strife-ridden years of industrial unrest during the 1970s and 1980s, I can clearly remember my dad pumping up a Tilley lamp whilst we played cards during the blackouts caused by power cuts during the "three-day-week"; and I remember watching the fighting between policemen and miners, and talk of "flying pickets" etc.

What experience I have of politics, business, worker's rights, and the "big picture" are those gained from being brought up around a family run business and working in industries that are notorious for... I don't want to use the word exploiting... so shall we say "maximising" the output of it's workforce.

I think we need balance. A middle ground between a left-wing Union dominated socialist beurocracy with everyone and everything brought down to the lowest common denominator; and a right-wing profit-foremost "them-and-us" champagne for the successful and fuck-all for the rest.

In an ideal world we walk the middle ground between the two extremes. Those of us old enough to have experienced what either of the two extremes are like will naturally shy away from repeating them and tend toward the other; those of us old enough to have experienced both of the extremes will want to walk the middle ground. I certainly do.

I'm a card-carrying Union man. Always have been, always will. But I've never voted Labour. As a working man I'd never be without the protection that a Union provides me - you wouldn't think they were bullies if you'd ever had need to be represented in the workplace.

I don't agree with holding people to ransom - and to strike (or threaten to) is something that I personally would only consider as the absolute last resort. But it remains the ultimate sanction - the nuclear option if you like.

I don't know enough to comment on the example raised above regarding the problems Ford had with their Unions, and I've no direct experience in industry where mechanisation would bring big savings - but I do recognise the fact that if you have a factory employing 1000 people producing a product, those 1000 individuals are all earning, paying tax and spending money within their communities. If you replace half of them with machinery, allowing costs to fall and production to rise, I can see benefits for the business owners and shareholders, but what of the 500 people now looking for jobs? What about the tax they would have been paying as opposed th the benefits they're now drawing? What about the money they would have been spending in the local pub/shop/whatever and the knock-on affects on the incomes of those businesses? My personal bug-bear is self-service checkouts... Every single one of those things is a person out of work in my eyes.

I recognise there are no easy answers - I certainly don't have any - but I do recognise there is more to any story than is portrayed in the press.

Glen.
 
#41 ·
Whilst I'm not old enough to remember with an adult perspective the strife-ridden years of industrial unrest during the 1970s and 1980s, I can clearly remember my dad pumping up a Tilley lamp whilst we played cards during the blackouts caused by power cuts during the "three-day-week"; and I remember watching the fighting between policemen and miners, and talk of "flying pickets" etc.

What experience I have of politics, business, worker's rights, and the "big picture" are those gained from being brought up around a family run business and working in industries that are notorious for... I don't want to use the word exploiting... so shall we say "maximising" the output of it's workforce.

I think we need balance. A middle ground between a left-wing Union dominated socialist beurocracy with everyone and everything brought down to the lowest common denominator; and a right-wing profit-foremost "them-and-us" champagne for the successful and fuck-all for the rest.

In an ideal world we walk the middle ground between the two extremes. Those of us old enough to have experienced what either of the two extremes are like will naturally shy away from repeating them and tend toward the other; those of us old enough to have experienced both of the extremes will want to walk the middle ground. I certainly do.

I'm a card-carrying Union man. Always have been, always will. But I've never voted Labour. As a working man I'd never be without the protection that a Union provides me - you wouldn't think they were bullies if you'd ever had need to be represented in the workplace.

I don't agree with holding people to ransom - and to strike (or threaten to) is something that I personally would only consider as the absolute last resort. But it remains the ultimate sanction - the nuclear option if you like.

I don't know enough to comment on the example raised above regarding the problems Ford had with their Unions, and I've no direct experience in industry where mechanisation would bring big savings - but I do recognise the fact that if you have a factory employing 1000 people producing a product, those 1000 individuals are all earning, paying tax and spending money within their communities. If you replace half of them with machinery, allowing costs to fall and production to rise, I can see benefits for the business owners and shareholders, but what of the 500 people now looking for jobs? What about the tax they would have been paying as opposed th the benefits they're now drawing? What about the money they would have been spending in the local pub/shop/whatever and the knock-on affects on the incomes of those businesses? My personal bug-bear is self-service checkouts... Every single one of those things is a person out of work in my eyes.

I recognise there are no easy answers - I certainly don't have any - but I do recognise there is more to any story than is portrayed in the press.

Glen.
Good post. Balance is key. :)
 
#45 ·
It's a fact that trades unions are demonised in the press.Any tory worth his salt will vilify unions at every opportunity.Unions in the past have fought for good reasons and at times we have been inconvenienced by their actions,but if union members wish to take industrial action,that is their right.Scargill fought to keep jobs and communities intact.We were beaten but we are still not bowed.IMO the tories despise working class people and i for one hate them right back,and we supported Arthur then and would now.He didn't lie unlike the government and it's puppets.
Just because we are at times put out by someones actions to improove his lot,doesn't make his argument wrong.Those of us lucky enough to have been through the miners strike and still be working know that we still need unions to be intact and strong.
long live trades unions.
 
#46 ·
I see the press reports at the time, there was no shortage of 'King Arthur' rhetoric too - the press did eventually turn on him, but perhaps it was because they reflected the mood of the majority in this country.
Not a minority that stood to benifit directly.

No matter what the financial gain, he was a man that basked in the glory bestowed upon him and abused a position of power - no better than the hard line, heartless Thatcher he fought - a clash of egos if ever there was one.

It was a battle it was impossible to win - simple logistics proved that - yet his ego took him into battle.
 
#47 ·
The simple logistics was a planned event though. History has proven this. Also this stuff about his ego...well yes by the nature of being front line political then yes. But pits were coming out on strike before he called for the action.

Im not sure about your comment that the minority stood to benefit...What do you mean? Because the majority had bathed in the gold that coal industry had brought for hundreds of years. When the north sea gas started to pay off coal was an easy target.

Some press did turn on him yes but a lot of that was that the papers could not hold out for so long under government pressure. Thatcher was instructing what was reported and what was not. It was this abuse of independent press that caused struggle in their own unions...and its subsequent defeat.
 
#49 ·
Ask some Ford workers or better still the contractor/temps how they feel about the so called union. Biggest bunch of cunts going. Bung the Union bods some cash for a new kitchen and they will open their arse to anyone
 
#65 ·
Errrr....you may not remember the '70s, Labour government, Winter of discontent, strikes, strikes and more strikes. Maggie broke the union stranglehold post Labour.
Lately, Ed Milliband got to be leader on the union vote, (Labour are in the pay of the unions and dance to their tune), don't think for one minute that favour won't be called in by the unions if/when Labour get back in, believe me it'll be hell.
 
#60 ·
As former production Foreman at the Austin I could tell a few stories. To be honest though, I try not to think back to how things were back in the day.

A couple of things I will say though if I may:

For every bolshi work-shy cnut that liked to stir up unrest, there were 100 hard-working blokes trying to earn a decent living.
Bad news and unrest sells newspapers, where-as years of good relations, high productivity and profit does not.
It's hard to build a competitive product using defective parts and drowning in a sea of red-tape.
 
#67 ·
The previous Labour government actually cut the public sector pension, in a deal agreed with the unions because it was done in a relatively fair way. They also imposed pay awards below inflation and in a large number of departments imposed pay freezes and pay and staffing cuts. Can't really comment on the bullshit job titles but in my department we were crying out for staff and funding to be able to get the job done, and we got neither. So don't think it was all on the gravy train under Labour. Public sector unions went on strike plenty under the most recent Labour government, I was part of it, and I'm not old enough to have worked under the previous Tory administration.

As for cuts needing to be made and the public sector being responsible for the debt we're now in, well that's probably a topic for another day, it's been done to death on here and elsewhere.
 
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