Electrics Cranking over a 2276 - VW Forum - VZi, Europe's largest VW, community and sales
 
Machine 7, high quality air-cooled  restoration and performance parts

     
 

Go Back   VW Forum - VZi, Europe's largest VW, community and sales > Tech Forums > Aircooled Mechanical Tech

Aircooled Mechanical Tech A Q & A Forum devoted to Aircooled Mechanical Issues. Got a problem? Then ask in here. Please, no 'For Sale' or 'Want To Buy' ads, plugs for your 'business', links to 'for sale' ads or Ebay links to your (or your mate's) auction (use the VZi 'Classifieds' section) - this also includes thinly veiled 'What's My Car Worth?' threads and "Who Can Sell Me A . . ." posts.

Machine 7, high quality air-cooled  restoration and performance parts
Reply Post New Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 20-02-2020, 09:43 PM   #1
lukej
I'm not an addict... honest!
 
lukej's Avatar

Trading feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Over there.
Posts: 4,799
Default Cranking over a 2276

So I've just tried to start my newly built 2276 10.2:1 CR and it doesn't crank very well at all.
So slow that the ECU doesn't even see it's cranking. With no rockers or spark plugs it'll turn over at 200rpm, which is enough for the ECU to fire the plugs.

Remade the connections on the starter, fully charged 063 battery, 44 Ah, 330CCA

The starter bush is only 3000 miles old too.

I have a stock (old) starter, so guess it's met its match but before shelling out I would like some input please guys!

Less than 50 will get me a new, bigger battery with 550CCA and 60Ah from Halfords but not entirely convinved that'll fix the issue.

I've remade the connection from the battery to the solenoid with 25mm2 cable, also replaced the spade terminal on the other connection. I have't touched the link between the starter and the solenoid. I will do that.

The starter spigot that mates with the gearbox is clean and free of paint/crud.
The earth strap from the battery to the body is brand new 25mm2 cable, as is the earth strap from the gearbox to the frame horn.

Auto starters, who's running one and where from?
They're only 0.8hp though compared to stock 0.7hp. Is that a worthy upgrade?
Alternatively, there's the Wosp high torque from just over 200 that produce 1.3hp...

Sorry that's a lot to hit you guys with... Any input would be hugely appreciated though
lukej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2020, 09:57 PM   #2
vw60
Chat Slapper
 
vw60's Avatar

Trading feedback: (0)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pomona Queensland, Australia
Posts: 407
Default

I run a auto starter on my 2276 with 10.8 to 1 compression and starts on the button. It would worry me that the engine only turns over at 200 rpm with the rockers and plugs out, my engine turns over higher normally, have you checked the engine and turned it over by hand to make sure there is no issue with the engine.
vw60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2020, 10:06 PM   #3
lukej
I'm not an addict... honest!
 
lukej's Avatar

Trading feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Over there.
Posts: 4,799
Default

I built it.
I thought 200rpm seemed pretty good. What RPM does yours crank at?

As far as starter options go

Stock ~100 0.7hp
Auto ~220 0.8hp
Wosp VW ~200 1.3hp
Wosp Porsche ~200 2.3HP (direct fit)


https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co....1/category/213

Sorry the Wosps are exc.VAT

Last edited by lukej; 20-02-2020 at 10:23 PM..
lukej is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 21-02-2020, 07:55 AM   #4
old gh bug
Seasoned Chat Slut
 
old gh bug's Avatar

Trading feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: cleveland
Posts: 2,896
Default

im running an auto starter on my 2110 with 9.5:1 CR no problems these auto starters were also fitted to 6 cylinder Porsches .
im not sure what rpm a normal starter turns over at .
If you have no binding on the engine , then sometings not right as you have said.
old gh bug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2020, 09:07 AM   #5
M.I.B
I really must get out more
 
M.I.B's Avatar

Trading feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Just South of the old capital...
Posts: 6,301
Default

I always used a Hi torque unit in preference to stock starters. Higher CR needs higher horsepower. Bigger battery isn't the answer.

But 200 RPM with no plugs and no rockers does seem very low - something binding somewhere.

With no plugs it should spin up as fast as a stock 1200.
__________________
'59 fully plastic bodied Wizard 2 seat roadster

Indian Scout 101ci

Originally Posted by mr slug:

"Best bike on the thread IMO, outright winner"


The Runaway Boy
M.I.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2020, 11:16 AM   #6
lukej
I'm not an addict... honest!
 
lukej's Avatar

Trading feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Over there.
Posts: 4,799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old gh bug View Post
im running an auto starter on my 2110 with 9.5:1 CR no problems these auto starters were also fitted to 6 cylinder Porsches .
im not sure what rpm a normal starter turns over at .
If you have no binding on the engine , then sometings not right as you have said.
I'll look into the auto starters but as I mentioned above, for the money I can get a far more powerful aftermarket starter.
I'm aware of people running a self supporting Skoda starter, that sounds like a decent option so I will price one up but I don't like the sound of them not engaging with the flywheel fully


Quote:
Originally Posted by M.I.B View Post
I always used a Hi torque unit in preference to stock starters. Higher CR needs higher horsepower. Bigger battery isn't the answer.

But 200 RPM with no plugs and no rockers does seem very low - something binding somewhere.

With no plugs it should spin up as fast as a stock 1200.
Any Hi Torque in particular? Are you referencing the IMI starters?

On my 1641 running the same ECU I had to set the rpm at which the ECU thinks the engine is running, it tells you to set this around 200rpm higher than actual cranking speed.
This is set to 400rpm indicating on that engine I had around 200rpm whilst cranking.

No one actually seems to know what it 'should' turn over at. Whats a stock 1200 crank at?

I will go through the other (free) tests, cleaning terminals etc and checking the starter over again, also have a spare one to try out.

Looks like as you say, the starter is the likely culprit though, followed closely by a battery that is potentially only just enough for a stocker.

Last edited by lukej; 21-02-2020 at 11:28 AM..
lukej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2020, 11:18 PM   #7
Mr.Whippy
Help! I'm trapped in here

 
Mr.Whippy's Avatar

Trading feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Thornton, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 13,209
Default

Easy first check - swap the battery for one from a daily driver modern motor - see how it goes - will prove the battery one way or t'other.

Re earth straps etc - New straps are good but if the metal they're in contact with has any sort of corrosion then that's an electrical weak spot (high resistance connection). Shiny metal to shiny metal all round on the heavy contacts especially. Polish all the contact areas before bolting up. New stainless or brass nuts / washers and a little smear of copper grease all good. If any threaded connections have rust then wire brush them shiny before fitting with new nuts & copper grease.

If any connection starts to get warm or hot to the touch after a short period of cranking (earths and positive connections included) then you have a high resistance connection right at that point so have a feel round at all the connections and re-make any that get even slightly warm.

I am planning to go down the Skoda starter route - Have bought a couple of them (a used one and a recon one) for use on my project but be aware you'll need mods to get the starter pinion gear to fully mesh with the flywheel. It should start without mods but for longevity you'll need full teeth engagement - I'm planning on fly-cutting my skoda starter casting down thinner to get full engagement. Skoda starter is more powerful than the VW one and is noticeably lighter too.

I assume the fresh build engine turns over OK and is not tight ? With the plugs out you should be able to spin it easily with 2 hands on the pulley wheel. With the plugs in it should be able to turn by hand slowly (2 hands) and by grabbing the pulley and fan belt for leverage. You should feel four very tight spots over 2 full rotations of the crankshaft. (compression on all four cyls) If the engine does not spin freely plugs out then there's more fundamental engine build issues to be addressed.

Make sure it spins over fast enough to put the oil pressure warning light out BEFORE you connect up the power to fire the plugs.

Keep us posted.

Dave.
__________________
Mk 2 Scirocco 1600 GT new clutch kit
Mk 4 Golf front brake discs & pads new in box (288 mm)
- Collect for free - I need the space - PM me.

Last edited by Mr.Whippy; 21-02-2020 at 11:32 PM..
Mr.Whippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2020, 11:45 PM   #8
lukej
I'm not an addict... honest!
 
lukej's Avatar

Trading feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Over there.
Posts: 4,799
Default

Evening Dave
I was considering borrowing the battery from the Audi, but don't want to deal with radio codes etc. My dad is bringing a huge Varta over tomorrow so hopefully that does something.
I've borrowed a spare starter, stock still but on the floor it turned far more convincingly than mine so I've fitted that.
I'll go over the earth leads again, good point on the feeling around for hot spots, I'll do that.

I did see the Skoda stuff, exactly how much work is involved with that?
I've seen they can be had for 50 odd but I can't help but think I'll go down the WOSP starter route.

The engine in its short block state turned with one finger on a 3/8" ratchet, noticeably tighter with the pistons involved and even more so with compression.

I am getting a consistent cranking signal from the ECU now and it's squirting fuel. Getting the odd back fire, I think the 10 cranking advance is too much given how slow it is turning over, maybe try dropping that for the next attempt.

I'm getting 10-12 psi cranking so I dare say we have plenty of oil pressure. Measured at the remote filter head.
lukej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2020, 12:27 AM   #9
Mr.Whippy
Help! I'm trapped in here

 
Mr.Whippy's Avatar

Trading feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Thornton, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 13,209
Default

Refer to this thread from a whle back - https://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1485089


Dave.
__________________
Mk 2 Scirocco 1600 GT new clutch kit
Mk 4 Golf front brake discs & pads new in box (288 mm)
- Collect for free - I need the space - PM me.
Mr.Whippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2020, 01:35 AM   #10
'77 Westy
Chat Slapper

Trading feedback: (0)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Near Lyon, France
Posts: 273
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukej View Post
As far as starter options go

Stock ~100 0.7hp
Auto ~220 0.8hp
Wosp VW ~200 1.3hp
Wosp Porsche ~200 2.3HP (direct fit)


https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co....1/category/213

Sorry the Wosps are exc.VAT
And Powerlite 217.80 inc VAT. 1.4kW. https://www.powerlite-units.com/starters/rac423.html
'77 Westy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply Post New Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Disclaimer: For recreational purposes only, some assembly required. Any resemblance to real persons,
living or dead is purely intentional and the site admins are not responsible for direct, indirect,
incidental or consequential ridicule resulting from any defect or failure to perform. No animals
were harmed in the creation of this forum. Colours may fade over time. No other warranty expressed or implied.

volkszone.com

SupportingSupporting Brad's Cancer Foundation

 










 
© Volkszone • Terms and Conditions of use



volkszone.com is an independent Volkswagen enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc. Content on volkszone.com is generated by its users. volkszone.com is not in any way affiliated with Volkswagen AG.