Try loosening the nut a couple of turns and try it.
Tightening it will make it slip more.

 

You want clutch bite to be low on the pedal. Not up at the top.
If slackening off the wing nut to give a good amount of free play on the pedal still gives slippage you need a clutch kit. And possibly a crank seal

 

Ahh so wrong way 😂 thanks chaps will try that tomorrow, be good if that’s does the trick as dropping the engine on the road is a bit of a faff what with the camber!

I was thinking about what else to do should I need to drop the engine, trouble is I do have some excessive end float and by all accounts from reading on here and elsewhere changing the crank seal is probably a waste of time?I do have a very small oil leak but it’s rly not too bad atm.

 

If you discover that the oil leak has contaminated the clutch, (causing clutch slip and judder), you will have to do something about the oil leak, or it will just ruin a new clutch quickly.
Even if you can't fix the end float now, anything you can do with the crank oil seal, (for what they cost), may help prolong the life of a replacement clutch friction plate.

 

The oil leak CAN be a worn flywheel snout or the flywheel O ring where the dowels are. Or a blocked breather pipe

 

Chances are, if the rest of the engine is suffering from high-mileage related issues, then there’s no cheap solution that’s going to present itself. Any new parts you fit to it are likely to have their service lives shortened by the worn ones.

If the engine has significant endfloat, then any work, parts or money invested in it is likely to be unsatisfactory in the long term.

 

Readjusted the clutch so it bites near the bottom of the pedal, sadly still slipping in 3rd on hills so will have to drop the engine at some point and investigate.

If there's no oil contamination on the clutch and its just worn then would people still advise to change the oil seal and o-ring? I would worry that changing the seal in that situation could change the dynamic of the engine and introduce a leak that then might foul the clutch. If it had no end float I would definately do it. ( also Garrick, what is the 'flywheel snout' exactly?).

I appreciate adding new parts to a worn engine brings a risk of being uneconomical but getting the engine line bored or trying to find a replacement isnt that practical, not to mention a veritable minefield, or particulary economically for me right now either. Apart from a very small oil leak and this current clutch issue the engine has no other signs of high mileage related issues, runs well... just recently did a 300 mile run perfectly.

Thanks for the replies,

Cheers, Kev

 

The snout is the back of the flywheel were the seal is. The lip of the seal can put a groove in the flywheel snout.
If there's no oil on the bellhousing and none behind the flywheel at the bottom I'd be tempted to just change the clutch. When the motor is out, measure the thickness of the disc. A thin one in the 5mm range will slip

 

The snout is the back of the flywheel were the seal is. The lip of the seal can put a groove in the flywheel snout.
If there's no oil on the bellhousing and none behind the flywheel at the bottom I'd be tempted to just change the clutch. When the motor is out, measure the thickness of the disc. A thin one in the 5mm range will range will slip.

I believe the official wear guide for VW workshops was 8mm, if the friction disc is less than 8mm thick fit a new one. Easy to check the thickness with an open ended spanner.

If you can afford it, and the disc isn't oily then replace friction plate, pressure plate & bearing. If money's tight, just the friction disc.

Dave.

 

Ok so I got around to dropping the engine, there was indeed oil in the bell housing at the bottom. However there didn't appear to be any oil contamination on any of the clutch components or flywheel face. All I could find was a powdery residue which I assume is just friction plate wear. There is also a small spring like thing in there bottom right which I have no idea what that is for or where its from or if it's related to my current issue which as a reminder, my clutch is slipping on hills under load usually in 3rd or 4th.

Not really sure what my next plan of attack is, perhaps its just the main oil seal thats gone so I guess flywheel off and investigate.

Any comments, advice appreciated!

Cheers, Kev

 

That small clip in the bottom right is a retaining clip for the release bearing. It looks like a clip has broken hence why the release bearing looks weird on one side. A couple of things don't look right in there

 

As callookoval said, your release bearing is not held securely in the fork, (because one of the retaining springs has broken), so it isn't releasing evenly and this can cause judder.
A new release bearing is needed at the very least.

 

Thanks both, that sounds promising - I know oil in the bell housing is kinda bad and got me a bit worried! (it is a worn engine as stated earlier on ).

Changing gears I do a get a reasonable amount of judder, so perhaps a new release bearing kit, or at the very least just a new clip so it's housed correctly will be enough. Will investigate that next when this shitty rain stops !

Cheers, Kev

 

Looks like it's this type of throw out bearing you need. With that residue in the bell housing, the clutch disc likely will be contaminated even though it may not be obvious. Ensure to give it a good going over with a good quality clutch cleaner if you're going to refit it.

 

Thanks, yeah that is my main worry that even if correcting the release bearing it has no effect on the slip under load due to possible contamination, I guess thats one I can only find out with testing after re-installing!

Thinking about that release bearing, would I be right in thinking that if it doesn't retract fully enough it could account for the slip under load in 3rd/4th on hills when the load is greatest? seems logical when i say it out loud =]

 

It possibly could be, yes.

Fit a new release bearing and clips and, if it were me, for the sake of pulling the motor again, I'd just fit a new clutch disc BUT I'd be doing a bit of investigative work first to find out why you're getting contamination in the bell housing.

Have you had a sniff of the contamination?!! Smell like gear oil?

 

No it doesn't really have a strong smell at all, very subtle. I checked the input shaft seal behind the clutch bearing sleeve with the 3 bolts and it looked good with no obvious damage or sign of leakage, but perhaps I'm just missing it?

I also noted damage on the clutch release bearing on the opposite side to where the retaining clip broke so it's definately not been sitting right as ppl have said.

I also note that there are 2 distinct clutch kits that will fit my engine. I did a bit of research and the one I currently have fitted is for 1.6 AS codes only which has 4 springs on the friction plate and a plastic sleeve in the center of the clutch release bearing which you can see protruding in the picture above.

I think for the sake of being thorough and the potential for damage (not obvious to me) to the springs because of the bearing not being housed correctly I will have to get a new clutch kit.

This is the one I have, its the only place I could find it and its out of stock: 215mm Clutch Kit - 1600cc (AS And CT Engine Code), Type 4 1800cc, 1900cc Waterboxer
This is the other, much more widely, one available: VW Air-cooled | Clutch Complete 215mm 1600cc Bus / Camper 76- | Classic Beetle Bus Camper Karmann Ghia and Type-3 parts

 

A good test is fit the fly wheel back on, without the seal. Torque it down. Leave clutch off. Then see is you can lift the flywheel up. If it move up by any amount this is an indication that the bearing is loose in the saddle. Another check is with the flywheel off pull back and forth on the crank pulley. Look at the flywheel end bearing, see if it moves back and forth. A loose oscillating flywheel end bearing will let oil escape, a groove in the flywheel where the seal lip is will let oil escape also. Worn rings will produce crank case compression which makes the oil leak worse as the pressure inside forces oil out of the weakest seal. An O ring in the back of the flywheel that has gone hard and brittle will leak oil too

 

As soon as I can get hold of a Torque Master, hopefully this weekend, I will check all that you suggest. Thanks. I also took a couple photos that maybe tell a story:

 

If that input shaft hasn't been cleaned, then it's good to go. It's too clean to be a leaker.

 

Thing is, there's no point fitting a new clutch and refitting the engine if there is case compression and end float. Also some cases don't have a good oil return at the bottom of the case parting line and oil pools and sits at the bottom inner part of the seal. If/when you split the case an oil return mod can be done. New cases have this mod built into it

 

Aye, I wont buy a clutch until I've at least checked the oil seal and o-ring. Splitting the case is not something that I can easily do in my current situation (or ever done). If there's nothing obviously wrong with the seals then I may just take a chance on refitting and hope my problems are related to the clutch release bearing - yes i know it's not ideal at all but it's a chance I will probably take.

 

I believe it's gunna be a combinations of a worn engine as a whole.
Good luck with it though.

 

Yeah, I'd agree with Garrick there. That amount of residue behind the flywheel is indicative of another problem - not related to your throwout bearing going out but likely related to your clutch slip. Combination of the two and maybe other niggles causing your issue.

 

Finally got the flywheel off. What a mess:

That's an awful lot of oil, will replace the oil seal I took out and moved on to check the O ring on the flywheel and lo and behold there isn't one installed 😱 The indentation is there so with any luck I might get away with this one, though I'm not completely discounting a leak from my worn engine, but that's quite a part to be missing. Flywheel snout was fine no discernible wear. Will do those tests Garrick Clark suggested over the weekend.

 

Use petrol and a tooth brush to clean that goo off. I see white silicone too, so the issue has been there before you've owned this vehicle. The missing O ring is a biggie though. And a good find.
Try using a double lip seal

 

I don’t see any oil seal or o ring with a double lip as an option looking at various sites.
What do you mean?

 

There are double lip flywheel Seals various places have them, try cool air. The O ring in the back of fly wheel will be just an O ring.

 

Ok so the o ring you are referring to thanks. Double lip for that sounds to me like that ita a tube construction? I don’t see anything else available that’s not like that, coolair incl

 

No, an 'O' ring has no lips at all.
Garrick.Clark is referring to the Main crankshaft/flywheel oil seal, the standard one has one lip, there are others with 2 lips : Type 1 Crankshaft Main Oil Seal - Silicone Dual Lip - Cool Air VW
Hope that helps

 

It’s been a while, unfortunately work got in the way, but I finally got round to cleaning it all up and started to install the new double lipped oil seal. I haven’t put it all way in yet as I was quite surprised at how easy it was going in. It’s about flush with the edge now and I can’t push it in with my thumbs anymore (I do have the installation tool which I will use for those last few mm).My question is: is it normal for it to push in so easily even with the smear of oil on the outer surface? All the videos I’ve watched ppl either seem to have to use the tool or the old seal with a mallet to drive it in much earlier

 

The Silicone flywheel oil seals are easier to push-in than the stock rubber seals, because the little ribs on the outer edge are softer.
Instead of oil, you could use a smear of gasket sealant like Blue Hylomar or Curil K2 etc.
Did you also get a new O ring for inside the flywheel ?

 

I’d be measuring your existing clutch before ordering a new, make sure it’s not a 200mm clutch. Also if your replacing the flywheel oil seal I recommend you do NOT buy the seals available from the major Vw suppliers. I buy viton rubber seals these days from simply bearings. They are superior quality and don’t leak.

FKM Rotary Shaft Seals: Single & Double Lip FKM Rubber Shaft Seals

simplybearings.co.uk

 

I’m not going to order a new clutch the one in there isn’t worn or that old, bought it for my old engine before the bottom end gave up. It only has about 2-3k miles on it. I did get a new clutch release bearing.

I bought one of those pink double lipped seals as suggested by someone else in this thread. Think it was from air cooled. If it’s really worth it I would be amenable to getting a viton one but I really don’t know the proper measurements.