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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Listening to Breakfast telly this morning ,and there was this report about pupils basicly grabbing a chunk of someone elses work from t'internet and doing a copy and paste on it :eek:
What do you think about this ?

Well interested or not heres my take on it....

Well back in my day i wasnt the sharpest chisel in the box when it came to Writing and Grammar, Im still not the best if im honest (Mark now waits for some Anal sort to point out his spelling Fo Pars:rolleyes:)but i get by.

Now a big old chunk of my time at School was spent being told to copy big chunks of info off the blackboard (which always seemed to get rubbed off the Board faster than my Pen could get it on the Paper)
Or copied from text books whilst teacher was doing some marking (I recon about 75% of the stuff i did at school fell into this catagory)

IMO,this was a fair enough thing in a subject like English but a pretty shit way to do physics, geography, etc

So what did i learn at school

I learnt i was pretty shit as Xerox machines come and go but thats about it :rolleyes:

Now dont get me wrong ,I am definately not Stupid,I love reading and learning about stuff,and if a subject grabs me i will research it in Minute detail

I also would like to think since pulling out onto the information superhighway i have learnt a hell of a lot too

So then is it so bad copying and pasting work?.......cos if i could do it back then i would probably be refered to as Doctor Unhinged by now:lol:
 

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Listening to Breakfast telly this morning ,and there was this report about pupils basicly grabbing a chunk of someone elses work from t'internet and doing a copy and paste on it :eek:
What do you think about this ?

Well interested or not heres my take on it....

Well back in my day i wasnt the sharpest chisel in the box when it came to Writing and Grammar, Im still not the best if im honest (Mark now waits for some Anal sort to point out his spelling Fo Pars:rolleyes:)but i get by.

Now a big old chunk of my time at School was spent being told to copy big chunks of info off the blackboard (which always seemed to get rubbed off the Board faster than my Pen could get it on the Paper)
Or copied from text books whilst teacher was doing some marking (I recon about 75% of the stuff i did at school fell into this catagory)

IMO,this was a fair enough thing in a subject like English but a pretty shit way to do physics, geography, etc

So what did i learn at school

I learnt i was pretty shit as Xerox machines come and go but thats about it :rolleyes:

Now dont get me wrong ,I am definately not Stupid,I love reading and learning about stuff,and if a subject grabs me i will research it in Minute detail

I also would like to think since pulling out onto the information superhighway i have learnt a hell of a lot too

So then is it so bad copying and pasting work?.......cos if i could do it back then i would probably be refered to as Doctor Unhinged by now:lol:
Its a hard one.

I suppose there are 2 schools of thought.

1) If you are stupid enough to plagerise verbatum then you deserve every punishment you get.

2) Most disertations/essay are based on other bodies of text. Be it a number of sources and textbooks or just one. All students should be able to read the text and make reference to them WITHOUT plagerising at all.

It is a strange one. My A-Level course work was on 7/8th re-writes by the time they were handed in. I'd write a draft, hand it to the head of the department, he'd review it and hand it back with suggestions. I'd re-write and then hand back to him.

Perhaps this is 'cheating' in the same way that plagerising is. The essay handed in is nothing like what I would have written and I should make reference to the editorial skills of the HOD.

Is the problem that Kids are just copying (which is cheating) or not making reference to (which is what I believe Plagerism actually is).

They are the same, but different if you get what I mean.

My Brain hurts.

Wiltsteve
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Its a hard one.

I suppose there are 2 schools of thought.

1) If you are stupid enough to plagerise verbatum then you deserve every punishment you get.

2) Most disertations/essay are based on other bodies of text. Be it a number of sources and textbooks or just one. All students should be able to read the text and make reference to them WITHOUT plagerising at all.

It is a strange one. My A-Level course work was on 7/8th re-writes by the time they were handed in. I'd write a draft, hand it to the head of the department, he'd review it and hand it back with suggestions. I'd re-write and then hand back to him.

Perhaps this is 'cheating' in the same way that plagerising is. The essay handed in is nothing like what I would have written and I should make reference to the editorial skills of the HOD.

Is the problem that Kids are just copying (which is cheating) or not making reference to (which is what I believe Plagerism actually is).

They are the same, but different if you get what I mean.

My Brain hurts.

Wiltsteve
Yes that makes sense :) but the point i was trying to get at was what i was being told to do was basically the same thing without the Copy and Paste
If i had been given the handout allowed to study and been asked to expand on the subject, or put it in my own words
It would have been a learning experience, as opposed to just showing up my shortfalls in the writing stakes

(see me after class your writing is messy blah blah etc :rolleyes:)

So instead of every lesson being an intense Calligraphy one i could have concentrated on the subject in hand

If i did have the copy and paste option it would have taught me a lot more IMO

and wasn't copying out of the book or off the board the same thing anyway(Plagiarism)
 

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What a lot of the kids are doing is ripping off stuff from the internet then passing it off as their own - trouble is a lot of em are too dumb to realise that the teachers can spot this a mile off - the writing style/knowledge level/subtley of argument etc just don't match the child in a lot of cases. My father in law used to be a teacher - and he always knew, and a little subtle quizzing on the subject would soon flush em out.

So yea thats cheating. The wife has done plenty of essays for her uni stuff over the years - she reckons that the difference is that when you quote some text

a - you acknowledege the source
b- its quoted in context of your point/counter point in the essay
c - when she was at uni most of their stuff was still in books so at least you had to have read and understood the chapter a bit to pull the quote out - not just google a ready lump!
 

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I think it's a bit of a trade-off...

ie; years ago, while we pushed hard our pens, we were limited by the resource of the teacher/lecturer, therefore only absorb what we are given... ... today, we can readily access a world of information from any source, from anywhere, and still absorb little tiny bits of information, but on a massive level, therefore the massive quantities of little information equates to probably the same absorption of info as say someone who learns less in terms of broadness, but is more specialised because of such...

ergo...

or something...
 

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Who made me the genius I am today,
The mathematician that others all quote?
Who's the professor that made me that way,
The greatest that ever got chalk on his coat?

One man deserves the credit,
One man deserves the blame,
and Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Oy!
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobache...

I am never forget the day I first meet the great Lobachevsky.
In one word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarize!

Plagiarize,
Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes,
So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize...
Only be sure always to call it please, "research".

And ever since I meet this man my life is not the same,
And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Oy!
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobache...

I am never forget the day I am given first original paper to write. It
was on Analytic and Algebraic Topology of Locally Euclidean Metrization
of Infinitely Differentiable Riemannian Manifold.
Bozhe moi!
This I know from nothing.2
But I think of great Lobachevsky and I get idea - haha!

I have a friend in Minsk,
Who has a friend in Pinsk,
Whose friend in Omsk
Has friend in Tomsk
With friend in Akmolinsk.
His friend in Alexandrovsk
Has friend in Petropavlovsk,
Whose friend somehow
Is solving now
The problem in Dnepropetrovsk.

And when his work is done -
Haha! - begins the fun.
From Dnepropetrovsk
To Petropavlovsk,
By way of Iliysk,
And Novorossiysk,
To Alexandrovsk to Akmolinsk
To Tomsk to Omsk
To Pinsk to Minsk
To me the news will run,
Yes, to me the news will run!

And then I write
By morning, night,
And afternoon,
And pretty soon
My name in Dnepropetrovsk is cursed,
When he finds out I published first!

And who made me a big success
And brought me wealth and fame?
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Oy!
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobache...


I am never forget the day my first book is published.
Every chapter I stole from somewhere else.
Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory.
This book, this book was sensational!3
Pravda - ah, Pravda - Pravda said:

"Zhil byl korol' kogda-to, Pri njom blokha zhila" ("It stinks"). 4
But Izvestia! Izvestia said:
"Ya idu kuda sam tzar' peshkom hodil" ("It stinks"). 5
Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva bought the movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle',
With Brigitte Bardot playing part of hypotenuse.6


And who deserves the credit?
And who deserves the blame?
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name.
Oy!
 

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I'm on the front line of all this as a secondary teacher.

I should start by saying that exam boards now are much more clever about checking coursework against the internet. A kid from here got caught out last year. At the end of the day, all an examiner has to do is type a suspicious passage from an essay into google. All will quickly be revealed.

The suggested method of handing drafts back and forth until the desired result is achieved is certainly unethical and would be grounds for dismissal here. If found out, an exam board would have grounds to refuse entry of all coursework from the school. There are rigid guidelines as to how much input a teacher can have in the production of coursework. Basically, you can never stray into 'leading' the student. The line can be a bit blurry but it is the spirit of the thing I suppose.

All work that is taken verbatim or even paraphrased must be referenced to the original author. Students are taught this clearly.
 

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Who made me the genius I am today,
The mathematician that others all quote?
Who's the professor that made me that way,
The greatest that ever got chalk on his coat?

One man deserves the credit,
One man deserves the blame,
and Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Oy!
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobache...

I am never forget the day I first meet the great Lobachevsky.
In one word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarize!

Plagiarize,
Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes,
So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize...
Only be sure always to call it please, "research".

And ever since I meet this man my life is not the same,
And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Oy!
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobache...

I am never forget the day I am given first original paper to write. It
was on Analytic and Algebraic Topology of Locally Euclidean Metrization
of Infinitely Differentiable Riemannian Manifold.
Bozhe moi!
This I know from nothing.2
But I think of great Lobachevsky and I get idea - haha!

I have a friend in Minsk,
Who has a friend in Pinsk,
Whose friend in Omsk
Has friend in Tomsk
With friend in Akmolinsk.
His friend in Alexandrovsk
Has friend in Petropavlovsk,
Whose friend somehow
Is solving now
The problem in Dnepropetrovsk.

And when his work is done -
Haha! - begins the fun.
From Dnepropetrovsk
To Petropavlovsk,
By way of Iliysk,
And Novorossiysk,
To Alexandrovsk to Akmolinsk
To Tomsk to Omsk
To Pinsk to Minsk
To me the news will run,
Yes, to me the news will run!

And then I write
By morning, night,
And afternoon,
And pretty soon
My name in Dnepropetrovsk is cursed,
When he finds out I published first!

And who made me a big success
And brought me wealth and fame?
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name. Oy!
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobache...

I am never forget the day my first book is published.
Every chapter I stole from somewhere else.
Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory.
This book, this book was sensational!3
Pravda - ah, Pravda - Pravda said:

"Zhil byl korol' kogda-to, Pri njom blokha zhila" ("It stinks"). 4
But Izvestia! Izvestia said:
"Ya idu kuda sam tzar' peshkom hodil" ("It stinks"). 5
Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva bought the movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle',
With Brigitte Bardot playing part of hypotenuse.6

And who deserves the credit?
And who deserves the blame?
Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name.
Oy!
Tom Lehrer?
 

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it may give you a good exam result but out in the real world the wheat soon gets sorted from the chaff eventually ive found:D
That's been the case ever since exams were invented... By the way, did you know exams were invented by Dr Exam.

Of course, this is not true, but if I invented exams, that's what I'd change my name to... or dave... maybe jeff...
 

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Help! I'm trapped in here
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
What a lot of the kids are doing is ripping off stuff from the internet then passing it off as their own - trouble is a lot of em are too dumb to realise that the teachers can spot this a mile off - the writing style/knowledge level/subtley of argument etc just don't match the child in a lot of cases. My father in law used to be a teacher - and he always knew, and a little subtle quizzing on the subject would soon flush em out.

So yea thats cheating. The wife has done plenty of essays for her uni stuff over the years - she reckons that the difference is that when you quote some text

a - you acknowledege the source
b- its quoted in context of your point/counter point in the essay
c - when she was at uni most of their stuff was still in books so at least you had to have read and understood the chapter a bit to pull the quote out - not just google a ready lump!
Yep i can also see where you are getting at also the point of VWFISH......

There is a whole world of difference in just googling and Hitting the Print button .....if you dont put in the effort it will show exam-time
......but thats what they are there for

What I'm trying to get at is if one unconnected thing holds you back you are gonna be up shit creak with the other stuff.

Asking someone with below par writing skills or a disability in that subject (and im talking Pen and paper) to copy something out of the book is always gonna hold their education back
When the onus is on the written work they are always gonna be bottom of the class.

I'm trying to find a parallel and the one i have is a bit off so i will apologise in advance if it offends anyone

Its a bit like asking someone with no arms and legs to participate in a class of able bodied people to show Pythagoras theorem via the art of interpretive dance ......they aint gonna get the top marks are they?
 

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Yep i can also see where you are getting at also the point of VWFISH......

There is a whole world of difference in just googling and Hitting the Print button .....if you dont put in the effort it will show exam-time
......but thats what they are there for

What I'm trying to get at is if one unconnected thing holds you back you are gonna be up shit creak with the other stuff.

Asking someone with below par writing skills or a disability in that subject (and im talking Pen and paper) to copy something out of the book is always gonna hold their education back
When the onus is on the written work they are always gonna be bottom of the class.

I'm trying to find a parallel and the one i have is a bit off so i will apologise in advance if it offends anyone

Its a bit like asking someone with no arms and legs to participate in a class of able bodied people to show Pythagoras theorem via the art of interpretive dance ......they aint gonna get the top marks are they?
Unless we are talking about handwriting here, it's never literally about what you write, it's about what you understand and how well you can show that you understand it. This method only lends itself to some subjects. That's why MFL and the like have oral exams.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Unless we are talking about handwriting here, it's never literally about what you write, it's about what you understand and how well you can show that you understand it. This method only lends itself to some subjects. That's why MFL and the like have oral exams.
Thats the thing my handwriting was slow and abysmal (it has got better over the years, but if i got one of my books from school out of the loft even i wouldnt be able to read it)
That was my thing,also the spelling and grammar. and it had massive concequeces with everything else i did:(

In that situation how are you supposed to grasp the understanding of a subject whist putting it accross in an exceptable medium?

I think i have just nailed down what i was yabbering on about in those 3 statements :lol:
 

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Thats the thing my handwriting was slow and abysmal (it has got better over the years, but if i got one of my books from school out of the loft even i wouldnt be able to read it)
That was my thing,also the spelling and grammar. and it had massive concequeces with everything else i did:(

In that situation how are you supposed to grasp the understanding of a subject whist putting it accross in an exceptable medium?

I think i have just nailed down what i was yabbering on about in those 3 statements :lol:
Are you saying you have an actual mechanical difficulty like dyspraxia? Because these days they have plenty of help for students like that.

I myself have horrendous handwriting. I am also dyslexic. I got a first degree though, twice. Most of the things I post on here represent the third draft.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Are you saying you have an actual mechanical difficulty like dyspraxia? Because these days they have plenty of help for students like that.

I myself have horrendous handwriting. I am also dyslexic. I got a first degree though, twice. Most of the things I post on here represent the third draft.
Yes pretty much so, I have never had any official testing on these things, but i did work at a Chemists when i was 16 and the guy i worked for was researching the subjects at the time
He was convinced it was a combination of all of the above.(as opposed to the general consensus at school i was a bit Dim and not worth the effort)

To his credit the Chap did help me with simple stuff like teaching me to write using capitals and spacing ........as opposed to doing joined up writing.
I still write like that to this day ,and its readable if a bit slower to do
 
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