right do not post on here please until the two arguments have been posted
thank you
thank you
peelo
Drinking alcohol in public places should be made illegal
Firsty, thanks for the oppertunity to take part in only the second debate.
Here goes....
Firstly, let's put this in context - by public, we're not talking about a beer garden, or an organised outdoor event such as a concert, wedding or BBQ etc, we are talking about random consumption of alcohol on the streets, in shopping centres, in our parks and other areas that might be considered inappropriate.
Any law passed of this nature will never please all of the people all of the time - a bit like taxation. I fully expect my 'opponent' to raise issues of civil liberties and freedom of choice etc - which I fully understand and support in many ways, but at what cost?
Since the war, there has been a continual decline in social standards, behaviour what is deemed to be acceptable and what is tolerated by society in general. One look around our town centres on a Friday or Saturday night will provide all the evidence needed to see effects of excessive alcohol consumption. Many of us will have seen the TV shots of teenage girls staggering through the streets at 2am with their skirts tucked into their knickers and bottles in their hands.
I appreciate that the majority of the drink will have been consumed within licensed premises, however it cannot help matters that people are allowed to take their drinks and continue drinking outside. I believe that the increased accessibility of being allowed to drink on the street can only make matters worse.
I'm not a policeman, but I'd bet that the vast majority of crime and / or violence on a Friday or Saturday night is fuelled by alcohol. We are not talking about banning alcohol in total, but surely reducing the opportunity to consume it can only help the situation, not to mention the health benefits.
It's not just adults we are talking about, or the UK's weekend culture. How many times have you felt intimidated by a gang of youths stood on a street corner bottles in hand, or been on a train with a guy swigging a bottle of cider in front of you and your family?
We all know that excessive alcohol causes a change in many people's behavioural protocols. This means that they can become unpredictable, which is what many people find threatening when faced with a drunk, or someone drinking in a place or situation that most would deem inappropriate.
If we go to a pub, club or restaurant were we all know that alcohol is served, we can make an informed choice to be there in the knowledge that there may be people who have drunk too much. We know what to expect and are ready and prepared for it, even if it is only in the subconscious. By allowing people to openly consume alcohol in public places, removes our right to choose whether we want to be in the company of people who may possibly be of diminished responsibility. Yes, I have the option to go elsewhere, but who is in the wrong - me and my family playing in a play ground, or a drunk staggering from the swings to the slide with a bottle of whisky, frightening the children?
This of course assumes that any consumption of alcohol will automatically be excessive and lead to bad behaviour. Of course it won't, and as ever, it will be the minority that 'ruin it' for want of a better phrase for the many. But ask yourself this - other than a properly organised event and / or venue as discussed earlier, why would you want to consume alcohol out in the public? What would your reasoning be when there are so many other opportunities to do so? With alcohol related illness and disease at an all time high, and the very fibre of our society under threat, why advertise alcohol to youngsters, and why aid and abet a problem we need to be addressing?
Firsty, thanks for the oppertunity to take part in only the second debate.
Here goes....
Firstly, let's put this in context - by public, we're not talking about a beer garden, or an organised outdoor event such as a concert, wedding or BBQ etc, we are talking about random consumption of alcohol on the streets, in shopping centres, in our parks and other areas that might be considered inappropriate.
Any law passed of this nature will never please all of the people all of the time - a bit like taxation. I fully expect my 'opponent' to raise issues of civil liberties and freedom of choice etc - which I fully understand and support in many ways, but at what cost?
Since the war, there has been a continual decline in social standards, behaviour what is deemed to be acceptable and what is tolerated by society in general. One look around our town centres on a Friday or Saturday night will provide all the evidence needed to see effects of excessive alcohol consumption. Many of us will have seen the TV shots of teenage girls staggering through the streets at 2am with their skirts tucked into their knickers and bottles in their hands.
I appreciate that the majority of the drink will have been consumed within licensed premises, however it cannot help matters that people are allowed to take their drinks and continue drinking outside. I believe that the increased accessibility of being allowed to drink on the street can only make matters worse.
I'm not a policeman, but I'd bet that the vast majority of crime and / or violence on a Friday or Saturday night is fuelled by alcohol. We are not talking about banning alcohol in total, but surely reducing the opportunity to consume it can only help the situation, not to mention the health benefits.
It's not just adults we are talking about, or the UK's weekend culture. How many times have you felt intimidated by a gang of youths stood on a street corner bottles in hand, or been on a train with a guy swigging a bottle of cider in front of you and your family?
We all know that excessive alcohol causes a change in many people's behavioural protocols. This means that they can become unpredictable, which is what many people find threatening when faced with a drunk, or someone drinking in a place or situation that most would deem inappropriate.
If we go to a pub, club or restaurant were we all know that alcohol is served, we can make an informed choice to be there in the knowledge that there may be people who have drunk too much. We know what to expect and are ready and prepared for it, even if it is only in the subconscious. By allowing people to openly consume alcohol in public places, removes our right to choose whether we want to be in the company of people who may possibly be of diminished responsibility. Yes, I have the option to go elsewhere, but who is in the wrong - me and my family playing in a play ground, or a drunk staggering from the swings to the slide with a bottle of whisky, frightening the children?
This of course assumes that any consumption of alcohol will automatically be excessive and lead to bad behaviour. Of course it won't, and as ever, it will be the minority that 'ruin it' for want of a better phrase for the many. But ask yourself this - other than a properly organised event and / or venue as discussed earlier, why would you want to consume alcohol out in the public? What would your reasoning be when there are so many other opportunities to do so? With alcohol related illness and disease at an all time high, and the very fibre of our society under threat, why advertise alcohol to youngsters, and why aid and abet a problem we need to be addressing?
Whilst I enjoy a drink as much as the next man, and some might say possibly more, I would be against any move to ban drinking in public places. Whilst it would remove the presence of those who drink to excess and behave badly in public it removes a great and simple pleasure from those of us who are able to conduct ourselves properly when drinking. It is unlikely to make those who currently spoil the matter for others as they would find some other way of continuing their consumption to satisfy their greedy need to drink to excess. The usual cause of public drunkenness is not that those people have been drinking publicly but that they have consumed far too much before becoming ‘public’.
There is no greater pleasure on a rare summer’s day than quaffing a cold cider in the great outdoors and whilst any ban might exclude areas of private property such as restaurant frontages and pub gardens it wouldn’t be long before a widespread ban on public drinking would be enforced. We can already see that the rules put into place to limit where you may of may not smoke are attracting the attention of those who would like to further ban smoking from open spaces, the street and possibly even peoples own homes.
I can not imagine not being allowed to wander around Stanford Hall, Santa Pod or Tatton Park without a cold can in my hand. I have done no wrong so why should the bad behaviour and ignorance of drunken louts take that pleasure away from me? Barring me from my public pint would simply drive me underground and might rather sadly see me indulge in drinking like a loner – doing so only to ‘sneak a pint in’ before I venture to the next public space.
I am able to wander about my favourite car shows with a drink in hand and do so without being abusive to others, without offending anyone and can conduct myself in a respectable fashion. It would be far better to deal with the poor behaviour of others rather than punish those who have done no wrong. Police would need more powers to deal with those who are abusing their privilege and be able to clamp down on anti-social behaviour.
Persistent drunken offenders in high profile areas should face immediate arrest, without the luxury of a soft option on the spot fine. Only then can we ensure that these louts get the message that public drunkenness will not be tolerated. Stricter regulation of serving drink to those who are clearly drunk or out to get that way need to be out into place and landlords need to restrict alcohol to those obviously drunk. It would be equally important to ensure that those who are ‘worse for wear; are unable to buy drink from off licences and supermarkets in an effort to curb their anti-social behaviour.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers to a particularly difficult and contentious issue but I am sure my ideas would serve as a good basis for reducing the problems associated with public drinking issues.
There is no greater pleasure on a rare summer’s day than quaffing a cold cider in the great outdoors and whilst any ban might exclude areas of private property such as restaurant frontages and pub gardens it wouldn’t be long before a widespread ban on public drinking would be enforced. We can already see that the rules put into place to limit where you may of may not smoke are attracting the attention of those who would like to further ban smoking from open spaces, the street and possibly even peoples own homes.
I can not imagine not being allowed to wander around Stanford Hall, Santa Pod or Tatton Park without a cold can in my hand. I have done no wrong so why should the bad behaviour and ignorance of drunken louts take that pleasure away from me? Barring me from my public pint would simply drive me underground and might rather sadly see me indulge in drinking like a loner – doing so only to ‘sneak a pint in’ before I venture to the next public space.
I am able to wander about my favourite car shows with a drink in hand and do so without being abusive to others, without offending anyone and can conduct myself in a respectable fashion. It would be far better to deal with the poor behaviour of others rather than punish those who have done no wrong. Police would need more powers to deal with those who are abusing their privilege and be able to clamp down on anti-social behaviour.
Persistent drunken offenders in high profile areas should face immediate arrest, without the luxury of a soft option on the spot fine. Only then can we ensure that these louts get the message that public drunkenness will not be tolerated. Stricter regulation of serving drink to those who are clearly drunk or out to get that way need to be out into place and landlords need to restrict alcohol to those obviously drunk. It would be equally important to ensure that those who are ‘worse for wear; are unable to buy drink from off licences and supermarkets in an effort to curb their anti-social behaviour.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers to a particularly difficult and contentious issue but I am sure my ideas would serve as a good basis for reducing the problems associated with public drinking issues.
When the ban was introduced on the underground in London, there was a big protest party organised where people turned up and went on the trains with booze for the last time.
It would have been a result if the whole thing had been mellow and passed off peacefully.
As I'm sure a lot of people remember... that was far from the case... there were loads of fights, injuries and run ins with the police.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7429638.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/jun/01/londonundergrounddrinkingpa
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641317732
It would have been a result if the whole thing had been mellow and passed off peacefully.
As I'm sure a lot of people remember... that was far from the case... there were loads of fights, injuries and run ins with the police.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7429638.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/jun/01/londonundergrounddrinkingpa
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641317732
I believe that it should not be banned, but a wholesale reform in education regarding drink should be the first thing that should happen. Policing it more closely in more family orientated could help, but more expensive for the state. Should the breweries be forced to subsidise it, like football clubs have to fund the Police at certain 'high risk' games?
It is mostly a British problem, though I understand that places like Germany and Austria are showing the signs of something along similar lines regarding it becoming a problem.
Scotland have banned 'happy hours' and special offers in pubs, or at least advertising them, the Scottish government are much more proactive about health issues than England. This won't stop the problem, but it may help.
'Booze' is so much cheaper these days due (compared to the average salary) so even though the pubs / clubs may stop happy hours, no-ones being stoped from buying 20 cans of Stella from ASDA for a tenner.
Take the French for example. A typical family will let their child have a glass of wine with their evening meal from the age of, say, 13. This is in a tightly controlled environment (with the parents), and the child begins the learning process of drinking responsibly, as opposed to the fact that it gets you pissed, quick.
The nation's got a lot to learn, when it comes to drinking. I believe it could help enormously in the earlier stages of life, but please don't stop me having a sup in the local park, with my mates, in the summer.
It is mostly a British problem, though I understand that places like Germany and Austria are showing the signs of something along similar lines regarding it becoming a problem.
Scotland have banned 'happy hours' and special offers in pubs, or at least advertising them, the Scottish government are much more proactive about health issues than England. This won't stop the problem, but it may help.
'Booze' is so much cheaper these days due (compared to the average salary) so even though the pubs / clubs may stop happy hours, no-ones being stoped from buying 20 cans of Stella from ASDA for a tenner.
Take the French for example. A typical family will let their child have a glass of wine with their evening meal from the age of, say, 13. This is in a tightly controlled environment (with the parents), and the child begins the learning process of drinking responsibly, as opposed to the fact that it gets you pissed, quick.
The nation's got a lot to learn, when it comes to drinking. I believe it could help enormously in the earlier stages of life, but please don't stop me having a sup in the local park, with my mates, in the summer.
A well reasoned argument Paul, and I agree with what you say toa degree.
Your argument weighs heavily on the car show theme, which I am in total agreement with. This is why in my argument I was careful to stipulate what was classed as 'in public', and stated that this be outside of a specifically organised event.
My argument, and the law I'd want passed, is against random drinking in public, outside the scope of an organised event or venue, such as in a park, public transport, street corners etc.
Your argument weighs heavily on the car show theme, which I am in total agreement with. This is why in my argument I was careful to stipulate what was classed as 'in public', and stated that this be outside of a specifically organised event.
My argument, and the law I'd want passed, is against random drinking in public, outside the scope of an organised event or venue, such as in a park, public transport, street corners etc.
I'm going to have to agree with thirteen-o-two on this, making drinking illegal in public will not stop people being drunk in public, it will just stop your average person from having a social drink with friends in a public setting. How many of us have been to BBQs in the park or on the beach & while I understand that you can still have fun without alcohol & I frequently do as I'm usually driving, would we not feel a little cheated if we were not allowed to share a beer/cider/glass of wine with our friends?
Local authorities already have the power to enforce public alcohol restrictions if they so wish, they are generally used to stop already drunken people from drinking more & causing a disturbance, or if there has been a complaint about drunken behaviour, if they refuse to stop drinking and relinquish their alcohol, they can be arrested. This seems a more sensible approach than an outright ban on alcohol in public.
Local authorities already have the power to enforce public alcohol restrictions if they so wish, they are generally used to stop already drunken people from drinking more & causing a disturbance, or if there has been a complaint about drunken behaviour, if they refuse to stop drinking and relinquish their alcohol, they can be arrested. This seems a more sensible approach than an outright ban on alcohol in public.
Many own centres have drinking bans, outside the pubs and clubs, even in Kendal, Ruralshire. Doesn't make a shite of difference to how pissed people get though, just where they go to do it.
Newquay has had a ban on public drinking in the town centre and beaches for many years. It is rather loosely enforced.
LT, most of your argument is based on anti social behaviour. Even now in town and cities that have already introduced drinking bans, anti social behaviour still occurs as the alcohol has been consumed within licensed premises, and not out on the street. Your argument I feel would be a strong case for better reform in prosecuting drunken/anti social behaviour and placing even more pressure on licensed sellers, but not one for banning drinking in public.
Mr 02, a question for you, despite the fact I agree with your argument.
Your use of car shows as an example of drinking in a public place, do you not feel that cars shows should promote a more responsible attitude towards drinking, and try to create an alcohol free environment? As by allowing drinking at a car events, could it not be seen as saying, drinking and driving is ok, as by association. How many people who rung what you brung at the pod have had one to many the night before and would be done for being over drink drive limits on a public highway, yet try to race down the quarter mile?
I personally feel banning drinking in public is not the answer, just a knee jerk reaction, a physical act to show something is being done without tackling the real problem. Greater pressure needs to be put on pubs/clubs and off licences in how they sell alcohol, is the person buying it already under the influence, if so then they should not serve that person. Greater education on responsible drinking, and tougher punishment for drunken behaviour.
Mr 02, a question for you, despite the fact I agree with your argument.
Your use of car shows as an example of drinking in a public place, do you not feel that cars shows should promote a more responsible attitude towards drinking, and try to create an alcohol free environment? As by allowing drinking at a car events, could it not be seen as saying, drinking and driving is ok, as by association. How many people who rung what you brung at the pod have had one to many the night before and would be done for being over drink drive limits on a public highway, yet try to race down the quarter mile?
I personally feel banning drinking in public is not the answer, just a knee jerk reaction, a physical act to show something is being done without tackling the real problem. Greater pressure needs to be put on pubs/clubs and off licences in how they sell alcohol, is the person buying it already under the influence, if so then they should not serve that person. Greater education on responsible drinking, and tougher punishment for drunken behaviour.
I'm kinda on the fence with this one, good arguments for and against a total ban but enforcing it would be the big problem.
I too like to go to the beach, countryside or the park in the summer and chill out with friends and family and have a glass of wine or a beer and behave respectfully so i would be against the ban for this reason.
However on more than one occasion i have had to defend myself or family in a public place from a drunken idiot hell bent on causing mayhem for whatever reason they see fit, even ending up in handcuffs for my trouble, so for this reason i would be in favour of tougher punishments for offenders.
Whilst i agree that this is one reason for society breaking down there are many more pressing things that need addressing, education, jobs and the other ridiculous laws that are already being enforced by the authorities.
The police would not be able to enforce a ban fully as it would tie them up doing more paperwork leaving less of them on the street to deal with the numpties at closing time who want to fight anything and anyone for no reason whatsoever.
LT. How would you propose the government find the finances to employ and train the staff to enforce the ban?
I too like to go to the beach, countryside or the park in the summer and chill out with friends and family and have a glass of wine or a beer and behave respectfully so i would be against the ban for this reason.
However on more than one occasion i have had to defend myself or family in a public place from a drunken idiot hell bent on causing mayhem for whatever reason they see fit, even ending up in handcuffs for my trouble, so for this reason i would be in favour of tougher punishments for offenders.
Whilst i agree that this is one reason for society breaking down there are many more pressing things that need addressing, education, jobs and the other ridiculous laws that are already being enforced by the authorities.
The police would not be able to enforce a ban fully as it would tie them up doing more paperwork leaving less of them on the street to deal with the numpties at closing time who want to fight anything and anyone for no reason whatsoever.
LT. How would you propose the government find the finances to employ and train the staff to enforce the ban?
The main issue I have is the minority that do cause a problem probably wouldn't give a monkeys if there was a ban or not, they will coninue behaving as they please because they dont give a shit.
Dont ask me what the answer is because I dont know, a ban would just further alienate the majority who can enjoy a drink or few without turning into a complete yobbo.
What should be looked at being dealt with is public drunkenness not public drinking
Dont ask me what the answer is because I dont know, a ban would just further alienate the majority who can enjoy a drink or few without turning into a complete yobbo.
What should be looked at being dealt with is public drunkenness not public drinking
I think enforcement would be an absolute nightmare.
When I was lucky enough to be in Hawaii a number of years ago they had a clamp down and enforced their laws. Result was families being hassled on the beach while having a pissy weak beer. They were all just minding their own business.
I think the enforcement side is the big worry. You can readily imagine the rowdy stuff would carry on... for the simple reason people mainly get drunk at home or in pubs and then hit the streets... while mellow law abiding people having a glass of wine with a picnic in the park will get busted.
Usually I'm anti bans because of a libitarian argument. But this time it's more the fact I think it's unworkable.
When I was lucky enough to be in Hawaii a number of years ago they had a clamp down and enforced their laws. Result was families being hassled on the beach while having a pissy weak beer. They were all just minding their own business.
I think the enforcement side is the big worry. You can readily imagine the rowdy stuff would carry on... for the simple reason people mainly get drunk at home or in pubs and then hit the streets... while mellow law abiding people having a glass of wine with a picnic in the park will get busted.
Usually I'm anti bans because of a libitarian argument. But this time it's more the fact I think it's unworkable.
LT, I think you got the shitty end of the stick with this one (as did I .... ) there are sufficient laws in place to deal with public drunkenness, unfortunately there does not appear to be the resources to deal with it. I am strongly against any new law at the moment, most, like the anti terrorist laws, are ill thought out and tend to be a gut reaction to any event.
I believe we need less laws, but we do need to enforce strongly some that are already out there, unfortunately most culprits seem to get away without any punishment these days, without a deterrent how can we expect people to obey the law? There are plenty of people out there ready to break the law because they are not afraid of the courts.
) there are sufficient laws in place to deal with public drunkenness, unfortunately there does not appear to be the resources to deal with it. I am strongly against any new law at the moment, most, like the anti terrorist laws, are ill thought out and tend to be a gut reaction to any event.I believe we need less laws, but we do need to enforce strongly some that are already out there, unfortunately most culprits seem to get away without any punishment these days, without a deterrent how can we expect people to obey the law? There are plenty of people out there ready to break the law because they are not afraid of the courts.
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